AK: Italian challenge.

[Panzerpimp]

Saw this achievement on steam:

"Italian Victory: Win Afrika Corps campaign without buying any German core units. Difficulty Colonel or higher" (0.7 % got this achievement)

Is it possible? I tried and failed.
Played on colonel, disbanded all german units including SE.
After many MV's and some losses I was crushed at Mareth Line.
I just can't hold the allies without too many casualties.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

You are able to keep the Germans you start with, and are free to upgrade those. Just can't buy any more.

AK was far too difficult for me in a number of places (Gazala, Basra, something in Persia area), even with Germans. I doubt 0.7% could have done it without!

- BNC

[nikivdd]

There is a better chance if one manages to get all the German bonus and capturable units throughout the campaign.

[sn0wball]

This has been called Graziani-Mode before. It wasn´t so difficult in the beginning, it mostly requires a different playing style. Its fun. You´ll get to love those switachable 90mm AA guns. Captured units and SE units become VERY important. I reached Persia without major problems. One surprising problem is the lack of engineers for clearing minefields.

[XXXthiem]

It definitely is possible, although without the SE units I'd expect it to be fairly challenging. Other than that Italy has everything you really need.
Their tanks are comparable to a Panzer III, they have one of the best AT guns available, the thing is dirt cheap, has 20 HA and it becomes available at Egypt, so late in '42.
Their artillery is also decent, although they lack long range mobile artillery and heavy mortars.
Their Bersaglieri are almost like Wehrmacht infantry, although their lack of any specialised infantry is a problem when it comes to clearing mines.

So really they have all the equipment to get you to India. It's just that without the shiny German toys you don't have any heavy weapons, so more scouting and tactics, less brute force.
Deducter has some very nice videos on YouTube on how to use underpowered equipment well.

[Panzerpimp]

Thanks for replies. I'll try the italians again with your hints in mind.

This has been called Graziani-Mode before.

Graziani mode? Interesting. Tried that in forum search, found some messages about italians - specifically these topics:

http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 21&t=69519
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 21&t=49633
http://www.slitherine.com/forum/viewtop ... 21&t=49016

So really they have all the equipment to get you to India. It's just that without the shiny German toys you don't have any heavy weapons, so more scouting and tactics, less brute force.

I already conquered India with german core, so I wanted to try losing path with italians.
Mareth Line destroyed my core completely - I tried different approaches, but the allies have experienced troops, air superiority (waiting for all the planes to move is a pain) and hordes of units.
Result: After 11 Scenarios (mostly MV's) I lost 29 core units (Allies lost ~310 Units). I had 700 prestige points - not enough to rebuild my core, so I ended the campaign.

Deducter has some very nice videos on YouTube on how to use underpowered equipment well.

There are many videos on his youtube channel. Is there any about Afrika Korps? Not sure which one I should watch. I enjoyed his videos about GC East when I played GC West, but grand campaign is a different challenge.

[XXXthiem]

Sadly he only ever did the GC. But I still found them quite useful for AK with Italians only. The same tactics that make a 38(t) work in Russia also apply to making sure your Italians don't get wrecked. It's a lot of spotting, traps, artillery and most importantly a good strategy for approaching the scenario.

As for the Mareth Line, I can't help you there. I've only ever looked at it once and the allied opening moves really put me off. I just assumed it was supposed to weaken your core for Tunis. And since I found Kasserine pass quite boring already I never finished the losing path.
So maybe it really is supposed to take your forces apart so you have a reason for losing.

[simcc]

I started a new AK game trying for this achievement and I have reached Persia with no issue on FM level. I disbanded all capture units and only kept SE units, I didn't disband the SE unit as there is no Italian SE unit to replace and those extra unit help a lot but I have to sacrifice the entire Italian outlook. My opinion so far in trying this is as below

1. That AA gun is invaluable. If he have +1 move it would be a killer for both air and tanks. I keep both my AA at strenght 12 and only 1 have +1 mobility and they rekt every hardware I can find.
2. Italian infantrt is very weak hence always move with arty support or enemy tanks will chew them up.
3. Recon is very very important but do not over extend the move as allied tanks are fast and will kill them so I use that mobile arty to cover my recon.
4. AT is only good when enemy tank is suppress do not go head on with your AT as they will not survive, I use them to do mop up exercise or only attack after arty or bomber shot.
5. Mines clearing is a trouble so I usually sacrifice some arty, tac bomber and infantry to clear it.
6. Italian tanks are quite good in close defence so I sit them in town most of the time and they do great versus enemy tank.

Generally I find my self moving slower than normal as Italian forces lack mobility as they need each other to have a proper defence unlike german where most of the panzer can hold the front line.

[Panzerpimp]

I have reached Persia with no issue on FM level

That's a great result. Have you tried losing path? (El Alamain - Tunisian Bridgehead)

I disbanded all capture units and only kept SE units

I disbanded captured units and SE Units, but I played on colonel. I will try again with german SE's

[hurly]

Saw this achievement on steam:

"Italian Victory: Win Afrika Corps campaign without buying any German core units. Difficulty Colonel or higher" (0.7 % got this achievement)

Is it possible? I tried and failed.
Played on colonel, disbanded all german units including SE.
After many MV's and some losses I was crushed at Mareth Line.
I just can't hold the allies without too many casualties.

When I first saw this I thought nice Task to try that

Since I don't play via Steam and can not look into the exact specs to achieve this achievement,

What is the meaning of "without buying German Core Units" ?

Does it mean no upgrades on the German Stuff you start with and pick up along the way ?
BNC basically answered this already.

But what about the Captured Units of Allied Origin you find ? (Mathilda, Crusader, Churchill etc) ?
Yun can "upgrade" these only into German Stuff. Is that already considered "buying German Core Units" ?
I see some guys disbanding them as well as any SE Units so I'm a little bit confused.
Not that I really need the achievement but I already spent some time with it and I'm entering Persia now on Colonel with about 18k Prestige and the Tiger is available now as well as the FW 190 so it might be a good idea to convert the Spitfire I found to a FW 190A and the 2 Hero 13 star Matilda into a Tiger maybe the 1 Hero Grant as well. (Basically that is what I did in the original Run with German Troops and with about the same amount of Prestige I finished the Campaign with a Victory) So now I surely wanna go all the Way with those Italians.

So please can anyone give me the exact Specifics of Do's and Don'ts for the Task ?

Grazie Ragazzi

[CommanderNico]

When I first saw this I thought nice Task to try that

Since I don't play via Steam and can not look into the exact specs to achieve this achievement,

What is the meaning of "without buying German Core Units" ?

Does it mean no upgrades on the German Stuff you start with and pick up along the way ?
BNC basically answered this already.

But what about the Captured Units of Allied Origin you find ? (Mathilda, Crusader, Churchill etc) ?
Yun can "upgrade" these only into German Stuff. Is that already considered "buying German Core Units" ?
I see some guys disbanding them as well as any SE Units so I'm a little bit confused.
Not that I really need the achievement but I already spent some time with it and I'm entering Persia now on Colonel with about 18k Prestige and the Tiger is available now as well as the FW 190 so it might be a good idea to convert the Spitfire I found to a FW 190A and the 2 Hero 13 star Matilda into a Tiger maybe the 1 Hero Grant as well. (Basically that is what I did in the original Run with German Troops and with about the same amount of Prestige I finished the Campaign with a Victory) So now I surely wanna go all the Way with those Italians.

So please can anyone give me the exact Specifics of Do's and Don'ts for the Task ?

Grazie Ragazzi

You can upgrade and use SE units , just dont buy any new German unit from the store. If you are unsure, save the game then do the thing you want then press crl+shift+alt+a if "bought german unit" is set to FALSE you are good to go

[robman]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I just started the "Italian Challenge" on my iPad (not Steam), and I am curious about one not-entirely-answered question asked above: Is it consistent with the "challenge rules" to upgrade captured Allied equipment to German equipment? As noted above, it is not possible to upgrade captured units to Italian units.

[hurly]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I just started the "Italian Challenge" on my iPad (not Steam), and I am curious about one not-entirely-answered question asked above: Is it consistent with the "challenge rules" to upgrade captured Allied equipment to German equipment? As noted above, it is not possible to upgrade captured units to Italian units.

Hi Rob

did not read your post carefully at first

well and thought why isn't he using the Tip by Commandernico ?

Well then I realized that might be not too easy to do on a Tablet

So I try to answer you from my experience (and the confirmation via nicos tip)

I do not play on steam though this is not 100% confirmed that on steam you might then still miss the award

Anyway

You can upgrade any German Unit you get and you do not have to stay in the upgrade family line

(eg you can upgrade your Panzer 2 to a Flamm as well as to Panzer III Panzer IV, Tiger or Panther and still be on your way to fulfill the Italian Challenge)

You can upgrade any Allied Unit you find to a German Unit as well

(same conditions as with the German Units)

Just stay away from buying any NEW Non Italian Stuff via the $ Button

btw
Inspired by the chat of goose and braccada I started to try the Italian Challenge on Rommel. Note i'm a notorious Colonel Level player and have no experience with other difficulty Levels before so I started in a kind of casual experimental mode without any special expectations how far this path will lead me, let alone that I have a chance to finish the campaign in Italian Mode on Rommel
Well it went better then I expected (albeit not like braccada or goose in a blind playthrough or ultra strategical think about every move mode and there are definitely several Restarts and Reload instances involved. Still once I got through Gazala Line I was hooked to this challenge and since I finished Alam Haifa (all with Decisive Victories) I sense there is a chance to make it all the way. Currently i'm in Arabia and while pretty cash strapped, pretty much all my (german and allied) tanks and fighters are already Tigers or FW190's so I still believe
I do not have a replay saved for some early Scenarios but can do so from save games with few turns left (perhaps missing a scenario or 2)
but at least its complete from Alem Halfa onwards perhaps even from Malta.

And I'm even thinking about creating an AAR of this run in the AAR section. Not sure though as I am not the kind of entertaining storyteller as braccada nor the kind of player that has charted every upgrade or purchased unit resp the losses. (of which there are no total losses to report so far so reform units was not needed yet and perhaps the costs for it would break my quest)
But at least i cann loosely post some replays step by step if there is some interest
Just dont expect the perfection of playing demonstrated by braccada co from my stuff nor the nice storytelling textings others can provide

[goose_2]

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I just started the "Italian Challenge" on my iPad (not Steam), and I am curious about one not-entirely-answered question asked above: Is it consistent with the "challenge rules" to upgrade captured Allied equipment to German equipment? As noted above, it is not possible to upgrade captured units to Italian units.

Hi Rob

did not read your post carefully at first

well and thought why isn't he using the Tip by Commandernico ?

Well then I realized that might be not too easy to do on a Tablet

So I try to answer you from my experience (and the confirmation via nicos tip)

I do not play on steam though this is not 100% confirmed that on steam you might then still miss the award

Anyway

You can upgrade any German Unit you get and you do not have to stay in the upgrade family line

(eg you can upgrade your Panzer 2 to a Flamm as well as to Panzer III Panzer IV, Tiger or Panther and still be on your way to fulfill the Italian Challenge)

You can upgrade any Allied Unit you find to a German Unit as well

(same conditions as with the German Units)

Just stay away from buying any NEW Non Italian Stuff via the $ Button

btw
Inspired by the chat of goose and braccada I started to try the Italian Challenge on Rommel. Note i'm a notorious Colonel Level player and have no experience with other difficulty Levels before so I started in a kind of casual experimental mode without any special expectations how far this path will lead me, let alone that I have a chance to finish the campaign in Italian Mode on Rommel
Well it went better then I expected (albeit not like braccada or goose in a blind playthrough or ultra strategical think about every move mode and there are definitely several Restarts and Reload instances involved. Still once I got through Gazala Line I was hooked to this challenge and since I finished Alam Haifa (all with Decisive Victories) I sense there is a chance to make it all the way. Currently i'm in Arabia and while pretty cash strapped, pretty much all my (german and allied) tanks and fighters are already Tigers or FW190's so I still believe
I do not have a replay saved for some early Scenarios but can do so from save games with few turns left (perhaps missing a scenario or 2)
but at least its complete from Alem Halfa onwards perhaps even from Malta.

And I'm even thinking about creating an AAR of this run in the AAR section. Not sure though as I am not the kind of entertaining storyteller as braccada nor the kind of player that has charted every upgrade or purchased unit resp the losses. (of which there are no total losses to report so far so reform units was not needed yet and perhaps the costs for it would break my quest)
But at least i cann loosely post some replays step by step if there is some interest
Just dont expect the perfection of playing demonstrated by braccada co from my stuff nor the nice storytelling textings others can provide

I would encourage you to type something up as I am sure there will be interested readers. I will not be able to view for a while as I am going to do that blind playthrough. Eventually...

[hurly]

I would encourage you to type something up as I am sure there will be interested readers. I will not be able to view for a while as I am going to do that blind playthrough. Eventually...

hm I will think about it then, but not sure how that will work out

and if I do it I want it to look at least a little bit stylish

[goose_2]

I think General Werner's style is the most entertaining in my humble opinion, but I have been unable to capture his style in my own and just keep plodding away at my methodical day by days.

I am sure your style will be very enjoyable, and will find it's niche in this my favorite and only forum for my favorite and only game.

[robman]

Many thanks for the speedy clarification! I inferred from the earlier discussion that captured > German equipment was "challenge compliant," but I wasn't sure.

I am finding this great fun so far. (At last save, I was dashing back from the wire in probably futile hope of stemming the breakout from Tobruk.) I'm playing on General for the time being, since at this point my Italians need all of the experience they can get. The challenge really does force more thoughtful tactics. Plus, some of the Italian units are quite good, such as the SP guns, the Sahariana, and the strategic bombers.

[braccada]

Your posts read well enough, so I think you will have little difficulty creating an interesting story. Just do not think too much about what others might think. In my first videos I was busy playing, trying to avoid to make a fool of myself and telling something interesting at the same time. That was very stressful

Now I do not think about it anymore and just play and talk. More fun that way and I am glad you enjoy it!

Anyways I would read the AAR and very impressive jump from Colonel to Rommel by the way. That definitely is quite a difference. If you do not feel that way, it only means you are much better than you thought.

Sorry to resurrect this old thread, but I just started the "Italian Challenge" on my iPad (not Steam), and I am curious about one not-entirely-answered question asked above: Is it consistent with the "challenge rules" to upgrade captured Allied equipment to German equipment? As noted above, it is not possible to upgrade captured units to Italian units.

Hi Rob

did not read your post carefully at first

well and thought why isn't he using the Tip by Commandernico ?

Well then I realized that might be not too easy to do on a Tablet

So I try to answer you from my experience (and the confirmation via nicos tip)

I do not play on steam though this is not 100% confirmed that on steam you might then still miss the award

Anyway

You can upgrade any German Unit you get and you do not have to stay in the upgrade family line

(eg you can upgrade your Panzer 2 to a Flamm as well as to Panzer III Panzer IV, Tiger or Panther and still be on your way to fulfill the Italian Challenge)

You can upgrade any Allied Unit you find to a German Unit as well

(same conditions as with the German Units)

Just stay away from buying any NEW Non Italian Stuff via the $ Button

btw
Inspired by the chat of goose and braccada I started to try the Italian Challenge on Rommel. Note i'm a notorious Colonel Level player and have no experience with other difficulty Levels before so I started in a kind of casual experimental mode without any special expectations how far this path will lead me, let alone that I have a chance to finish the campaign in Italian Mode on Rommel
Well it went better then I expected (albeit not like braccada or goose in a blind playthrough or ultra strategical think about every move mode and there are definitely several Restarts and Reload instances involved. Still once I got through Gazala Line I was hooked to this challenge and since I finished Alam Haifa (all with Decisive Victories) I sense there is a chance to make it all the way. Currently i'm in Arabia and while pretty cash strapped, pretty much all my (german and allied) tanks and fighters are already Tigers or FW190's so I still believe
I do not have a replay saved for some early Scenarios but can do so from save games with few turns left (perhaps missing a scenario or 2)
but at least its complete from Alem Halfa onwards perhaps even from Malta.

And I'm even thinking about creating an AAR of this run in the AAR section. Not sure though as I am not the kind of entertaining storyteller as braccada nor the kind of player that has charted every upgrade or purchased unit resp the losses. (of which there are no total losses to report so far so reform units was not needed yet and perhaps the costs for it would break my quest)
But at least i cann loosely post some replays step by step if there is some interest
Just dont expect the perfection of playing demonstrated by braccada co from my stuff nor the nice storytelling textings others can provide

[hurly]

Your posts read well enough, so I think you will have little difficulty creating an interesting story. Just do not think too much about what others might think. In my first videos I was busy playing, trying to avoid to make a fool of myself and telling something interesting at the same time. That was very stressful

Now I do not think about it anymore and just play and talk. More fun that way and I am glad you enjoy it!

Anyways I would read the AAR and very impressive jump from Colonel to Rommel by the way. That definitely is quite a difference. If you do not feel that way, it only means you are much better than you thought.

Well thx for the nice words
according to the original Post I'm one of the chosen 0,7 %
well most likely only cause maybe just a few people tried for the Italian Challenge anyway

but even though I do not seem to feel the Rommel Pressure or better do not feel it in Afrika Korps yet (as I know this Campaign much better than anything else, maybe except the the original Panzer Korps campaign) I think the Rommel ground rules fit my style better than perhaps any other higher Level in the Game as it is just a few parameters different. Basically I get less Prestige while the AI gets more and the rest is about the same as in Colonel except the AI Level of 2 which is about the same as Level 1 to me so far (well maybe just the naive innocent words of a another naive wannabee General bound to Fail sooner or later ) Then there are no Turn Limit Tasks for achieving a Decisive Victory in Afrika Korps and basically no Penalties for a Minor Victory.
So it is maybe just a good resp. lucky match for me on my way to India.


That said it helps me a lot not to see many inner City Combat Scenarios as well as not too many defensive Stands as I am a notorious pushing forward General, that certainly lacks a lot in the virtues of Discipline, Patience and Planning. And here I am compared to your Style with Patience, Anticipation and especially the Setting of Traps for Fighters and forcing Surrender on Ground Units not even close to your exploits, maybe not even on the same planet.
But even if I would sometime get the grasp for these things, I don't think I can play like that and still have fun. A liitle Risk here and there and getting smacked for it sometimes is basically what makes me go out and well try the Scenario again if needed.
Like I said undisciplined, impatient Risktaker in Charge on my Part here and always optimistic that things work out for me in the end.

Oh my God reading my last sentence again I'm a lot like Donald Trump

[braccada]

I think there are more enemies, too. I noticed that in the Caucasus where a lot of Soviet tanks are missing and often there are more enemy planes. For me the most difficult missions were Malta and Gazala. Persia and Caucasus could be a pain especially playing the Italian challenge. Other than that I think there are no real obstacles even on Rommel. Maybe India. I have not played that, but I do not nearly have enough prestige for a best case core or even enough units.

All things considered in my opinion Rommel is as more difficult in the Wehrmacht campaign. I feel I had more prestige issues there. However Afrika Corps is not easy and I am sure most people can't do the Italian Challenge on Rommel. So great work!

Well, and your comment made me laugh, so do not worry, you are definitely good at writing