Panzer II Flamm: Hot or not?

[Longasc]

Hello!

I am playing Panzer Corps an just reached Voronezh in DLC 1942 (again).

But the game changed since I last played there. Not only is Patch 1.12/1.14 quite different from 1.20+, I also noticed some unit changes and possibly additions.

The Panzer II Flamm might be in for quite a while already (who knows it exactly?), but I only noticed it when starting to play the 1942 DLC.

Now I wonder: Is a 6 (SIX!) Close Defense tank the right tool to deal with those nasty 15 STR Russian Conscripts?
I might consider some for Stalingrad depending on your input. Because my veteran Infantry pool is often quite depleted after Stalingrad, with the replacements being green and having a terrible time to gain XP facing ever increasing odds.

I used a few Panzer IIIN before but even they got attacked by Infantry in the open and suffered some damage. Now I imagine a T-34 coming for a Panzer II Flamm leaves it as a burning wreck even if I would put strong artillery behind it.

What do you think, rather forget about the Infantry substitute and get Infantry, get even more artillery or stay with a Panzer IIIN as Infantry/Infantry helper?

[sn0wball]

Given the choice between a IIIN and a II Flamm, I have always chosen the former. It is much more versatile. To deal with infantry, especially massed formations of Russian conscripts, even in city terrain, you can always suppress them with a Nebelwerfer and attack with a IIIN afterwards, if no veteran infantry is at hand. And even that IIIN is severly endangered by most Russian tanks. I don´t see how you can get a II over the battlefield to that spot you need it in.

[Razz1]

Have one of both with artillery support.

Then you are in good hands.

[Resolute]

The II Flamm is fairly decent. I usually upgrade Heinz Rondorf to II Flamm and with some artillery support the tank does tremendous damage but AI tanks won't attack your Infantry in close defence but will attack II Flamm tanks and with a ground defence of 8 they take quite a bit of a beating. So, a good tank but has to deployed and used carefully.

[ThorHa]

The II Flamm is great for Stalingrad, however:

1) If you have Pz III with defensive heroes, upgrade these to III N. The II Flamm can only be used effectively against infantry.

2) The II Flamm with its low hard attack is a magnet for Russian tanks. The CD of 6 is of little use, if the enemy has a hard attack of 11 and the enemy tank CD of 2 is irrelevant, as you shoot with half of that strength.

Thus the only tank I used as II Flamm is the Pz II with the "multiple" hero (+1 in everything) you receive in a 41 scenario (Smolensk?), as this one is cheap to upgrade.

The II Flamm is too much of a one purpose wonder - great against infantry, even entrenched, and that's just it. It's low stats means it is even pretty vulnerable to artillery.

Regards,
Thorsten Haupts

[ThvN]

The Panzer II Flamm might be in for quite a while already (who knows it exactly?), but I only noticed it when starting to play the 1942 DLC.

It was added for Afrika Korps, so it has been available from version 1.13, around August 2012? How time flies...

To add, the PzII Flamm is indeed a one-trick pony, but that is very true of the original as well. I've only used them with limited succes, but it is a lot cheaper than a Pz IIIN and an ''in-family" upgrade to the basic Pz II, which is nice when you are low on prestige and stuck with a Pz II.

Some of the benefits of the Pz II Flamm are hidden, for example it has a Rate of Fire of 14, which means that a 10-strength unit rolls 14 attack dice (and a 12-str unit rolls 16 dice!), which partly makes up for the low attack strenght. On the iPad version this is completely invisible so this might help some to get more out of it.

Also, besides ignoring entrenchment when attacking it has the 'fortkiller' trait, which means its hard attack gets boosted by +5 when attacking structures. So when attacking forts, strongpoints and other buildings its Hard Attack becomes effectively 6. This is the same trait that the paratroopers have. So when a scenario has structures that have to be dealt with I am tempted to deploy it. I've used this with great effect during 'Dash to the Wire' where I sent it deep into the desert to quickly take out the hidden hangars (which are structures as well). But it is fragile and needs a careful owner who knows how to get the most out of it.

[wargovichr]

Everybody's gotta have a Flamm in their core! Great against pesky infantry and structures with a most pleasing sound effect with the flame!
Of course it must be protected and NEVER be left in the front line exposed against enemy armor.
Maybe not use it in all battles, but fun factor ENOURMOUS.
Protect it.

[captainjack]

I tried using the Flammpanzer II and it seemed to attract every enemy unit in sight (and several that weren't). Even though the sound effects and visuals are pretty cool I couldn't justify the expense. But then again I've only just started to learn how to keep Nebelwerfers alive for more than five turns, so it might just be time to try the Flammpanzer again - maybe I should attach it to the Nebelwerfer unit.

In AC the Churchill crocodile is even better than the Panzer II Flammpanzer - good armour, reasonable hard attack and 140% ROF plus all the extras. The main downside is that they count as an out-of-class upgrade even from Churchills, but they are still worth it, and by the time they are available I seem to have plenty of prestige. They are so good that I usually upgrade all my Churchys to Crocs as soon as I can. Even though they are good, it's still a good idea to suppress infantry before setting the Crocs on them.

[BiteNibbleChomp]

Flamms are so awesome that I was even using one in USA WEST COAST!!!!!!

My second favourite unit only to Arado Bombers (234s)

- BNC

[Longasc]

Thanks for the input!

Is there a good way to look up things like "ignores entrenchment" or "fort killer" and all that?
Panzer Corps could make good use of a unit editor or at least a more informative screen truly showing all data, like RoF and so on.

[ThvN]

Is there a good way to look up things like "ignores entrenchment" or "fort killer" and all that?

Hi Longasc, you're welcome. Most traits are described in threads which are linked by the FAQ: viewtopic.php?f=121&t=27283, under 'game mechanics' . Sometimes I'm thinking of concentrating all available info in a single thread, because it is very scattered right now. But my work has been eating too much of my time lately, so no promises.

The stats of the units themselves are all in a single file, equipment.pzdat in the main \Panzer Corps\Data folder. You can open it with Excel and even Notepad. The traits are listed in single field, seperated by a space. For example, the Pz II Flamm has 'meng fortkiller', meng is the same trait as engineers have (ignores entrenchment) and fortkiller is already explained. And I agree, some traits and the RoF settings can have a big effect on gameplay without being explained in the game other than in the combat log, so it would be nice to be able to see them beforehand.

[Kirby]

PzII Flamm is a great unit. To understand when to use it, strip it down to its basic components: it's a Pioniere on wheels.

It's main weakness, enemy artillery and tanks, requires only one thing: not being brought forth until at least air supremacy is guaranteed.
Its main strength is speed. Where anti-entrechment units have a movement of 2, Flamm can get there faster. It also gains XP really quickly.

Any scenario with a huge map that features open terrain and requires constant liberation of entreched positions (Rush to Stalingrad comes to mind) is making the Flamm shine.

Although these units might get a beating, the "repair" cost is trivial compared to the either turn # or damage to other units that you just prevented by rushing that strongpoint more quickly.

I stongly urge people to take another look at PzII Flamm and try using 1 or 2 per scenario. Obviously, use it correctly, or you might not see the best of results.

[captainjack]

Nice to have a positive discussion - I wish I'd upgraded the Panzer 2 hero into the Flammpanzer. I know I can convert the Panzer IVG but it feels like I missed an opportunity. Next time....

PS
Wouldn't you have to be some kind of hero to be using a Panzer 2 in 1941?

[Longasc]

Yeah I turned Rondorf into a Panzer IV, too.

I have two SE Panzer IIIN at the moment and will reach the outskirts of Stalingrad soon. Time to think about the future city fighting. Another problem with the Panzer II Flamm is that I don't want to "downgrade" an experienced tank to this kind of special unit, but starting with zero XP is a bit dangerous in Stalingrad, even if they gain prestige quickly. Let's see.

[captainjack]

Just went through Sevastopol siege and Voronezh with my shiny new (downgraded) Flammpanzer. Working with the nebelwerfer and accompanying 8 move mobile AA it was very effective at clearing well entrenched (suppressed) soft targets and both scenarios had plenty to practice on. The only time it took damage was when I had the AA guarding a group of trucks nearby and one of the Pe tac bombers caught it.

I can understand the reservations about starting a green unit, but because it's cheap it will gain experience pretty fast and is cheap to reinforce. As for me, if I feel the need for an extra Panzer IVG (or a second experienced flammpanzer), I have my 3* Somau sitting in reserve, though I'm hoping I can hold off until Tigers or Panthers are available.

[Kirby]

Yeah I turned Rondorf into a Panzer IV, too.

I have two SE Panzer IIIN at the moment and will reach the outskirts of Stalingrad soon. Time to think about the future city fighting. Another problem with the Panzer II Flamm is that I don't want to "downgrade" an experienced tank to this kind of special unit, but starting with zero XP is a bit dangerous in Stalingrad, even if they gain prestige quickly. Let's see.

Flamm is probably one of the easiest units to level up later in the game, as they beat infantry heavily and take lots of damage (both count toward XP if I'm not mistaken). But they are cheap to maintain, very cheap. I usually end up converting them to an anti-tank tank and leaving 2 units until the end of the game.

[captainjack]

After a one-sided encounter with three overstrength T34/41s, I am going to learn at first hand how easy it is to gain experience on a brand new Flammpanzer late in 1942.

The advice to treat the Flammpanzer as a fast moving pioneer unit appears sound, and pairing it with the Nebelwerfer works particularly well in this role. If only I had followed my own advice to keep a screen of real tanks ahead of it...

[ThorHa]

Usefulness of Flamm expires in 42. Its usage in Stalingrad is already borderline. I would use III N instead.

Regards,
Thorsten

[Bonesoul]

The mobile Barbie, is never going to hold its own against tanks, though it can be useful in surrounding to force surrenders, or to finish off a one point tank rather than wasting a shot from something else (as I guess a Pzr I could). So far I've found it an ideal upgrade for the PzrII with hero you are given because it gains experience so fast and is cheap to reinforce.

There are two things I find it (with the hero) useful for. As a third Recon, providing I can advance my screen past it, it gives me that little peak at how it might be best to place the screen and more importantly used with an infantry and a neblewerfer allows me to take most of those out of the way minor flags in a single turn a (10 str guard rocket suppress, infantry attack, famm to finish). As were given the PzrII, its a cheap upgrade to the flamm and providing you don't get caught and loose it, will be a 3 possibly 4 star unit ready to upgrade to a tiger or panther once its outlived its usefulness. If you upgraded it to a PzrIV, it would be much more expensive over all to end up with it as a big cat and I very much doubt as a IV it would get to anywhere near 4 stars, mabe 2.5 at a push.

Cheers
Bone

[MartyWard]

Usefulness of Flamm expires in 42. Its usage in Stalingrad is already borderline. I would use III N instead.

Regards,
Thorsten

Its not bad at Kursk.