Very upset.

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MartyWard
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Re: Very upset.

Post by MartyWard » Thu Apr 24, 2014 1:44 pm

ThorHa wrote:I read quite some vomments on the snowball effect prior 1.20 and found exactly one common ground - all quit playing the dlc after 43 out of boredom. Not before. Thus it was and is farily easy to spot the real problem, which is simply a campaign design mistake.

Regards,
Thorsten
Which I never understood because all the things that made it that way were things you could already change. If someone thought it was to easy they could reduce their core size, they could use older equipment that could take away prestige from themselves, they could make the most historical core possible. It was like they didn't want to do it themselves but wanted it changed to the default so they didn't have to do it themselves.

Now the same could be said of the current design, you can still use the cheat codes to make the game easier, but the people who would want to make it easier are more likely not to be the ones who come to the forum and go to the thread where the cheat codes are listed to make the changes. It is not documented in the rule book and it's not like this is a new game, it is 3 years old and NOW it is fundamentally changed?

monkspider
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Re: Very upset.

Post by monkspider » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:00 pm

I have been replaying the Grand Campaigns, this time going the Western route, and I have definitely noticed that these campaigns, from 43 on, really weren't balanced to be compatible with the soft cap. I try to use a historical core but I found that I was very prestige-starved very quickly. I had to actually find a way to disable the soft cap in the game files. The soft cap is a good idea but it wasn't tuned very well for these later campaigns.

Muddy
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Re: Very upset.

Post by Muddy » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:06 pm

I have been advised to take the western route after I complete 42. I don't know if I will take this advice until I give it a go myself. It just seems like a waste to drop the rest of the eastern campaigns, they cost me money. :)

fliegenderstaub
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Re: Very upset.

Post by fliegenderstaub » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:20 pm

Instead of editing the "gamerules" file I would like to see a button or something where to enable or disable the soft cap. I like many of the new 1.20 features, so it is no option for me switching to the 1.14 rules. It is just the soft cap - which I don't dislike in general - but shuold be turned on/off a bit easier.

For now I want to know when disabling the soft cap will take effect? At once, with the next scenario or the next campaign?

Thanks in advance! :)
...and like the once-mighty Mahi-Mahi, you will end
up on a poo-poo platter in the Tikki Hut of life! -Al Bundy -

MartyWard
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Re: Very upset.

Post by MartyWard » Thu Apr 24, 2014 4:29 pm

monkspider wrote:I have been replaying the Grand Campaigns, this time going the Western route, and I have definitely noticed that these campaigns, from 43 on, really weren't balanced to be compatible with the soft cap. I try to use a historical core but I found that I was very prestige-starved very quickly. I had to actually find a way to disable the soft cap in the game files. The soft cap is a good idea but it wasn't tuned very well for these later campaigns.
If you had to use anything close to a 'super' core before the soft cap to win, you pretty much have no chance now as I think you are correct, the scenarios were originally created assuming the player would be using the best available units. That is why they are virtually impossible to play as stand alone scenarios.

captainjack
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Re: Very upset.

Post by captainjack » Fri Apr 25, 2014 3:03 am

The problem with prestige soft cap is that it can't be seen whether it's working and how much it affects you. If you do find out it's affecting you in a way you don't like, it is difficult to change.

I am probably an above average player because I play a lot and can accumulate a big pile of prestige when I want to (especially with soft cap off). but the soft cap does not - and never will - affect my choice of units. This is because there is no in-game information on when it is affecting you nor on how your choices influence its operation.

After reading the justifications for its introductions, it appears that the soft cap was introduced to solve a problem that had already been fixed. For example, 1.2 makes overstrength progressively more expensive, introduces custom difficulty to allow challenges such as reduced prestige settings, allows change of difficulty during a campaign, penalises out-of class upgrades and suppresses reinforcements. Five effective solutions to the steamroller problem. And one poor one. Make the prestige cap an option and the problem - which from the discussion above clearly annoys a lot of people - will go away very quickly.

And to those who argue that if you don't like the soft cap, you should play on 1.14 - you are missing the point. 1.14 and 1.2 differ substantially and mostly in good ways (class specific experience bonuses, surrender prestige plus the five points mentioned above). The suggestion I should sacrifice six or seven good features because I don't like one poor and unnecessary feature does not have much going for it. Even more so when it clearly annoys many others.

Incidentally, if you follow ThvN's guidelines for disabling soft cap in the gamerules file (which has made playing a pleasure once again), it will not affect the DLC you are currently playing. You will either have to restart or wait until you start the next one. This is probably true for any changes to the soft cap limits, but since I have disabled it, changing the limits no longer holds any interest for me.

MartyWard
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Re: Very upset.

Post by MartyWard » Fri Apr 25, 2014 12:40 pm

captainjack wrote:And to those who argue that if you don't like the soft cap, you should play on 1.14 - you are missing the point. 1.14 and 1.2 differ substantially and mostly in good ways (class specific experience bonuses, surrender prestige plus the five points mentioned above). The suggestion I should sacrifice six or seven good features because I don't like one poor and unnecessary feature does not have much going for it. Even more so when it clearly annoys many others.
Personally I don't find any of those a big improvement in gameplay or a must have. I know others do so I am not saying they shouldn't have the opportunity to use them if they want. The game was pretty good before the changes and without rebalancing the scenarios I don't think they make it a whole lot better. I wouldn't mind having the option of turning on one or two at a time for a little variety though especially if you could do it between scenarios.

captainjack
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Re: Very upset.

Post by captainjack » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:08 pm

MartyWard - I forgot the best improvement of all.
1.14 Reform Units activated by cheat code each time you restart a scenario.
1.2 Reform units switched on and stays on.

I wasn't intending to suggest that because I like these features everyone else should, but more that 1.14 and 1.2 have quite a lot of differences, rather than just one or two, so switching between them is quite a big change. It would be equally annoying if you really disliked on of my favourite features and thought everything else was equal or better.

Looking, back, when 1.2 came in I disliked almost all the changes. Where I could see what they did and how to change play style and/or unit selection to accommodate them I have now got to like them.

Bonesoul
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Re: Very upset.

Post by Bonesoul » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:13 pm

WARNING: May contain spoilers/information you don't want to know in advance, if so don't read further.

Having just played through my first GC42 scenario (I watched Deducter's AAR video first so it wasn't totally blind) I thought it worth adding some of the impressions it left. On the face of it the scenario wasn't too hard, you need to be more careful now because leaving units in the wrong place and without cover will hurt you a lot more, but fundamentally all looked ok.

To me there were going to be 3 groups of AI needing clearing to free up the tracks for trains, two initial assaults from east and west to deal with and potentially 4 other assaults coming in from NE,NW,SE and SW. The train track in the middle section had two alternative routes either of which would work but in the south reverted to just one (something which caused me pain as I will explain later). As I knew the trains could be moved south of the Dvina in two moves I decided on a strategy, initially I needed to clear the north and middle AI groups blocking the line while trying to prevent the initial AI attacks from east and west from breaking my defensive lines. I would then clear the southern group and crush the east west assaults, advance out to try and grab some flag hexes for prestige, then retreat back into a position to respond to assaults from any of the four other possible AI attack groups.

It went great, it took a while working out what to place where to get them where I wanted (the difficulty of seeing hero effects +move but also +def) required some tinkering to get right, I even ensured the brunt of casualties from the initial assaults was taken by aux units (in the west not so much by choice), I don't mind green reinforcing aux units in scenario ,if I can use them to draw attacks, their experience progression is irrelevant and its cheap. After destroying the two AI assaults my breakout went well, grabbing some nice prestige flags, airfields and destroying pesky AA guns. My forces then pulled back to deal with the four peripheral AI assaults and as they came polished off the ones from the NE, SE and SW (exploiting the AI's tendency to leave flags unprotected, I even sneaked recon units around the side of their assaults to grab the flags behind them), I was a pig in poo.

Then and this I why I think its relevant to the debate here, there was a nasty surprise, The last AI force in the SE, instead of facing the forces I expected Spawned four KV1-C and then Two Recon, The whole of the original AI force Drove north towards the southern airfield, where I had positioned a little force of 2xPzrIII and a Stug to hit them in the flank/rear (surprise now on me not on the AI) and my main defensive line got hit not by mixed T34/41 and infantry but by bloody great tanks, better ones than all but the KV-2 in the initial assault that gets itself surrounded a little too easily. All of this just as the weather turned nasty and it was snowing (by-by air support and at this stage KV-1C without stuka/strat bomber double ouch). Ah and the cherry on the cake all those KVs now block that darn southern stretch of railway lint to get the finally required transport train home for a DV.

Out of the blue (maybe into the blinding blizzard is more apposite) a well excecuted scenario plan turned into a craps shoot (and if your silly enough to play that dice game you deserve to loose all your money) with me as the craps. By hook or by crook (well mainly because the weather finally turned) my troops managed to clear the track to get the final train, by that time two into the end zone for a DV. My little PzrIII/Stug force retreated waiting for help from the NE, the third of the four secondary assaults had hit me from there while I rushed some of those troops to assist where needed, with of course the snow making it more of a crawl then a rush.

Though I did it, losses went from acceptable to brutal and much more expensive, with not much more than the 88 that could seriously hurt the KV's I was left rotating in units to take a beating and having to elite reinforce the bloodied, so I could simply throw them back in to again take another beating for little return.

Given this is scenario one of GC42 and just a taste of what is to come, I'm starting to see the problem. I can understand why if at all possible players ended up all Tiger/Panther, artillery defensive fire (I had a mix including Stug, 15cm, 17cm and rocket) was ineffective in terms of suppression, so even with their support infantry in close terrain or Panzers in open got seriously hurt by the KV's for little damage back. Offensively, the artillery suppression was equally useless, infantry would be attacking back against the KV's standing on clear terrain (maybe a shot if they were on close but the map didn't help much) and though your panzers, maybe, could have a go, with it likely they could be hit by two KV's next turn, to reduce the serious risk of losing 3 star core units it seemed better to rotate in defence and reinforce.

With artillery and infantry becoming increasingly worthless (well I suppose infantry is cheaper to reinforce and throw back to be butchered) and the, I would guess scripted spawns, being what they were (KV-1C, not A, B or T38s but C's) you are literally being forced to go for the big cats, forget snowballing, its being dictated by the game. "If you build it they will come" and it looks like its been built so the only route is the big cat.

Looking into my crystal ball, I'm starting to see a core of big cats, 88's and planes, not by desire but by necessity.

Cheers
Bone

Tarrak
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Re: Very upset.

Post by Tarrak » Fri Apr 25, 2014 9:37 pm

captainjack wrote:MartyWard - I forgot the best improvement of all.
1.14 Reform Units activated by cheat code each time you restart a scenario.
1.2 Reform units switched on and stays on.
The settings for reform units, as well as the chess and dice chess, are independent from the game rules settings. You can have them enabled or disabled via the checkboxes under both rule settings.

MartyWard
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Re: Very upset.

Post by MartyWard » Fri Apr 25, 2014 10:15 pm

captainjack wrote:MartyWard - I forgot the best improvement of all.
1.14 Reform Units activated by cheat code each time you restart a scenario.
1.2 Reform units switched on and stays on.

I wasn't intending to suggest that because I like these features everyone else should, but more that 1.14 and 1.2 have quite a lot of differences, rather than just one or two, so switching between them is quite a big change. It would be equally annoying if you really disliked on of my favourite features and thought everything else was equal or better.

Looking, back, when 1.2 came in I disliked almost all the changes. Where I could see what they did and how to change play style and/or unit selection to accommodate them I have now got to like them.
I have no issue with the reform units idea though I never have used it to actually reform a unit. If all of the changes were able to be chosen like reform units then that would be the ideal way to do it.

ThorHa
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Re: Very upset.

Post by ThorHa » Sat Apr 26, 2014 3:06 pm

Bonesoul, I am sorry to disagree again.

Just 3 points:
This scenario is clear as hell - bring 4 supply trains into safety to acheive a DV. Which means straying out for Soviet cities is a decision which SHOULD have consequences.
If I am not totally mistaken, it is possible to get all of the supply trains into safety before the brutal 5 KV 1 c make themselves known. Requiring to take notice of the arrival of a new one each turn and move them south as fast as possible. You don't have to fight the final Soviet attack.
If you stay strictly on the defense, counting the one city with the T34/41 as the only exception, you have more than enough forces to simply surround the KVs and force surrenders.

And as a last point - no, this ks not what you can expect further. Kharkov and Simferopol, the next 2 ones, are rather easy.

Regards,
Thorsten

captainjack
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Re: Very upset.

Post by captainjack » Sat Apr 26, 2014 10:34 pm

Tarrak,
I was thinking of how things were when 1.14 was the latest version, when not knowing if Reform Units was on or off caused a few headaches, not the present form where 1.14 is an optional version.

Bonesoul
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Re: Very upset.

Post by Bonesoul » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:01 pm

ThorHa wrote:Bonesoul, I am sorry to disagree again.

Just 3 points:
This scenario is clear as hell - bring 4 supply trains into safety to acheive a DV. Which means straying out for Soviet cities is a decision which SHOULD have consequences.
If I am not totally mistaken, it is possible to get all of the supply trains into safety before the brutal 5 KV 1 c make themselves known. Requiring to take notice of the arrival of a new one each turn and move them south as fast as possible. You don't have to fight the final Soviet attack.
If you stay strictly on the defense, counting the one city with the T34/41 as the only exception, you have more than enough forces to simply surround the KVs and force surrenders.

And as a last point - no, this ks not what you can expect further. Kharkov and Simferopol, the next 2 ones, are rather easy.

Regards,
Thorsten
We are all entitled to our own opinions, I do think however in some of your comments your being a little selective :-

"This scenario is clear as hell - bring 4 supply trains into safety to acheive a DV. Which means straying out for Soviet cities is a decision which SHOULD have consequences".

In getting to here you will have had to work through the thirty plus scenarios of G39-41 and if you have got here with the sort of prestige bank you can, in most of those scenarios you will have taken flags for prestige that weren't key to achieving a DV. Why would you suddenly stop now? All the other cities were easily capturable without getting units too far out of position to handle the next wave, especially if you use recon units for the captures.

"If you stay strictly on the defense, counting the one city with the T34/41 as the only exception"

If you stick strictly to the absolute scenario guidelines I would guess you wouldn't get half the captureable tanks, in general the cities that yield them aren't necessary for a DV. More than that, other than checking the forum's and finding the right thread, how would you ever find them or know about them. Many of them are in out of the way cities after all. even in the next scenario, the city that gives a tank isn't essential for a DV.

"And as a last point - no, this is not what you can expect further. Kharkov and Simferopol, the next 2 ones, are rather easy."

I have to agree after the build up from this thread I was worried but the next tow are a lot easier or should be. I had a serious issue on Simferopol due to a Spanish flu type issue, I don't think that was scripted (my pc caught a virus and I've spent the last two days reinstalling stuff: P).

I do stick to my guns on some issues, I thought the spam of 4 KV1-C a bit over the top, 4 T38/41's ok but KV1-C's is just taking the P a little bit, especially given that historically there were about 63,000 T-38s built in WWII and only about 8,500 heavy tanks with 4,500 of those being of the IS variety which first saw service about Jan44. Anther useless fact, pulled from an enthusiasts forum so unverified, the ratio of troops to tanks on the eastern front stayed between 700 and 1000 to 1 across the whole period, the mainstay of both armies throughout was infantry.

The other is the lack of effectiveness of both artillery and infantry against tanks, especially in close terrain. Tanks without infantry protection are always vulnerable, the harder it is to see the infantry getting close the more vulnerable they become. Their main armour is pretty much universally frontal, the sides back top and bottom, not to mention their tracks don't need 75mm long cannon. As to artillery suppression against tanks its not so much tank kills as stripping away their infantry support, creating terrain even in the clear that increases their vulnerability and hitting their mechanical support units in while they are preparing to deploy. In the latter stages of the eastern front the Russians used infantry to protect the flanks of their advance with a defence in depth strategy against German panzers which at its core halted the panzer advances by depriving them of their close infantry support, with continued unsupported advance being suicidal.

Cheers
Bone

Bonesoul
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Re: Very upset.

Post by Bonesoul » Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:01 pm

Double post

Zleepyhead
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Re: Very upset.

Post by Zleepyhead » Fri Oct 03, 2014 6:32 pm

Well, my two cents worth on the whole subject, I played all the old Panzer General games, played to Lake Balaton on the vanilla campaign and am now about to finish Streets of Moscow. Even though I have played a lot, I am not a hardcore player. I don't calculate out orders of battle etc. I just try to keep a decent line and look for good matchups. I say all this because I really don't think the "hard" scenarios are too hard. If you get stuck, try a brand new strategy. If you used tanks, try air or vice versa. Or try Alexander the Great instead of Napoleon. My main advice would be patience. Spend your first 5 or 6 turns probing weaknesses and building strong positions. Don't go toe to toe with The Bear - poke him, run and then KILL KILL KILL when he is out in the open. Like in Moscow, late in the game I got charged by 3 big Russian tanks. I backpedaled with my tanks and introduced and another wave of Ivans to Rudel. That is fun.

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