Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

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Aristides
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by Aristides »

flatsix518 wrote:
"No food fights are allowed in the cafeteria."
:D I had to laugh at this!

But come on guys, if you want to point out how/when Pete, or I, or anyone else has behaved in a manner you don't think appropriate isn't it best to PM? I know, also "rich", and kettles and pots and lots of black, but as if the first word is public, responses will also be public.
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That yet for a while rivers may run clean and birds build their nests,
Ere Night comes.’
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by voskarp »

This development is depressing. Good thing I had a sweet Trappist beer while reading this. Otherwise I've would have uninstalled FoG, buried my computer in the back yard and hung myself by now...

Come on, be a bit more gentlemanly and creative for ∫ÜǺ∑ sake!
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by batesmotel »

It might be helpful to keep this thread to more specific discussion of how to organize LoEG for the future and less on the sins of various individuals in the current season. At the moment this seems to devolving into random comments, aspersions and similar rather than a useful discussion.

Chris
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by pantherboy »

Lets keep things together guys as voskarp suggests. Just post new suggestions, pros or cons for current ideas and avoid any criticism aimed at individuals on a personal level.

Cheers,

Steve
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

voskarp wrote:This development is depressing. Good thing I had a sweet Trappist beer while reading this. Otherwise I've would have uninstalled FoG, buried my computer in the back yard and hung myself by now...
No, don't do that Oskar, you are doing a very good job, mate. :wink:
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by voskarp »

stockwellpete wrote:
voskarp wrote:This development is depressing. Good thing I had a sweet Trappist beer while reading this. Otherwise I've would have uninstalled FoG, buried my computer in the back yard and hung myself by now...
No, don't do that Oskar, you are doing a very good job, mate. :wink:
You mean drinking the Trappist beer? :)
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by voskarp »

I just want to ad that I LOVE this game, and beyond the temporarily ruffled feathers there's goodness on this forum! (We all know that.)
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

voskarp wrote: You mean drinking the Trappist beer? :)
Ha-ha! I appreciate that it must be quite difficult for you as a convenor at the moment and I am sorry for my part in that. But you have stuck to your duties and you are running your section very well. If the convenor system is retained for next season then I hope you will continue in that role. :wink:
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by voskarp »

I better not run out of Trappist beer then! ;)
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by flatsix518 »

Ok. I'm done contributing to this thread. Publicly or privately.

John
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by bagration1812 »

You violated this one:

11. Player Etiquette

So far players have conducted themselves with the utmost of sportsmanship. We don’t feel it is necessary to discuss how players conduct themselves...

Public insults. Twice.
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

bagration1812 wrote:You violated this one:

11. Player Etiquette

So far players have conducted themselves with the utmost of sportsmanship. We don’t feel it is necessary to discuss how players conduct themselves...

Public insults. Twice.
Tom, I genuinely apologise to you for using the words "incompetent" and "negligent" during the course of the fracas. I allowed my frustration with the situation to get the better of me and I chose my words unwisely. I do hope you will continue in your role as convenor for the rest of the competition. You have done an excellent job with the results spread sheets and tables.
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

Here is a re-written version of the rules that includes a number of ideas that have been touched on in the discussion so far (e.g. re-setting of games, a 4-2-1-0 points regime, an organising committee etc). There are only six rules now and I have tried to be as succinct as possible with them. The new ideas have been put in italics.

Proposal

League of Extraordinary Gentlemen: Rules of competition

1. The League
The league will be made up of 4 sections. These are Classical 600 BC – 26 BC; Imperial 25 BC – 493 AD; Dark Ages and Early Medieval 494 AD – 1120 AD; and Late Medieval 1121 AD – 1500 AD. Each section will usually be divided into “A”, “B”, and “C” divisions. 10 players will participate in the “A” and “B” divisions and up to 12 players will participate in the “C” divisions. If any “C” Division has less than 10 players at the start of competition then recruitment to it will remain open for a limited period. Priority for later recruitment will be given to players who are new to the competition or to those players whose LOEG rating is at a similar level to other “C” division players. New players will usually start in the “C” divisions and returning players will be placed in the division relevant to their previous standing and current LOEG ranking.

Promotion and relegation will occur between all divisions. Players winning a “B” or a “C” division will always be promoted and players coming bottom of an “A” or a “B” division will always be relegated. Other promotions and relegations will be at the discretion of the tournament organisers.

Players who have completed 25 tournament matches within the last four seasons will be given a LOEG rating.

The league will be administered by a committee of five people – a secretary and four section convenors.

2. Joining the League and Selecting your Armies
Players are required to select three different army lists for each of the sections that they wish to enter and to post them in the relevant “recruitment” threads. Players will be allocated one army for each section they have entered. Lower rated or un-rated players are more likely to receive their first preference choice while the higher rated players are more likely to receive their second or third choices. Very occasionally higher rated players may be asked to make a fourth selection.

Each season players are not allowed to reselect an army list they have chosen in a previous season until they have played with 5 different armies. Each list must also originate from a different nation. This is to encourage variety within the league and broaden players playing styles.

For each of the sections players will always field a 500pt army from their own list; allies can be included if desired. Players are free to customise their army before each battle.

3. Participation in the League
Players who have been regular participants in the past will be able to enter all 4 sections of the League. New players and regular players who have been unable to complete all their league games in the previous season will be restricted to just 2 sections of the League. Players who entered 2 sections of the league in a previous season and did not complete all their matches may be excluded from the competition for the current season.

Players who have been held responsible for persistent slow play in a previous season may also face restrictions to the number of sections they may enter in the current season.

Players must register their first result in each section they have entered within one month of the opening of the tournament or they may be replaced by a player from the reserve list.

4. Matches
“Fog of War” and “Double Moves” settings are mandatory for this league. Either player may initiate a match by posting a challenge in the appropriate thread in the competition forum.

If a match is set-up incorrectly for any reason then it must be re-started as soon as possible. Players may also agree to restart a game during the first two turns if they feel the map terrain makes it likely that the match will be stalemated.
Reporting the result of a match is the responsibility of the winning player.

5. Winning league points
Points will be awarded for wins, losses and draws as follows . . .
4 points – win
2 points – a draw where both armies break on the same turn
1 point – any other type of draw

0 points - loss

In addition, a tally of battle groups broken and lost will also be recorded in the event of a tie breaker being required when determining final league positions.

6. Player Etiquette
Please treat organisers and other players in the way that you would wish to be treated yourself. Try to respond to communications as quickly as you can and once you have started a match play at a regular pace so it can be completed within a reasonable timespan. It is expected that all matches will be completed within one month of their starting date. If you are unable to play for a period of time then please let your opponents know in advance, whenever possible.

Please notify the tournament organisers if you are unable to contact an opponent or if they fail to make a move in a match in progress after 7 days have elapsed without explanation.
If your opponent has not moved at all for one month then you are entitled to claim the match automatically by using the facility to do this on the multiplayer system.

If you wish to resign from the league, or if you will not have time to finish all of your matches, please notify the tournament organisers as soon as possible so we can delete you from the league if you have played no games at all, or issue forfeits on your behalf so that your opponents do not waste time trying to contact you.
Last edited by stockwellpete on Sun Jun 02, 2013 6:14 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by bagration1812 »

Thank you, Pete. Apology accepted. Let's move on and get back to gaming.

Cheers -

Tom
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by Turk1964 »

Gday Pete
I have read through your proposals for LOEG rules and i think most will think they are very clear and to the point.I would though include the Ability to claim a game if there has been no play for 30 Days,as one can normally.So you would have to Pm the absent player 3 times and post on the forum the same .After the second pm and warning Convenors should attempt to contact the absent player to see what the hold up may be.

Cheers Turk
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by rexhurley »

Hi Pete good ideas which I would support. Clarification please (I just skim read my apologies) if you reset the map within two turns because you think it will stalemate is that in the occasion where both sides thinks it will stalemate or just one?

Is this done in the context of play or perceptions of what is going to work, maybe it can work as you say two senior players choose to do so but I would suggest if one wants it and the other doesnt because they have won initiative and made a choice based on their force selection, which is a key part of the game in my view (and why I no longer participate in Fogman's events as this is removed from the game) it won't.

I like your idea of the 4/2/1 scenario although think 3/2/1 will suffice and make it more encouraging to actively engage in the game otherwise it may be to hard to pull back leaders in events across the whole ten games. 3/2/1 allows for that win/winning draw/draw scenario we see in TT Swiss chess comps.

Regards Rex
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

rexhurley wrote:Hi Pete good ideas which I would support. Clarification please (I just skim read my apologies) if you reset the map within two turns because you think it will stalemate is that in the occasion where both sides thinks it will stalemate or just one?

Is this done in the context of play or perceptions of what is going to work, maybe it can work as you say two senior players choose to do so but I would suggest if one wants it and the other doesnt because they have won initiative and made a choice based on their force selection, which is a key part of the game in my view (and why I no longer participate in Fogman's events as this is removed from the game) it won't.

I like your idea of the 4/2/1 scenario although think 3/2/1 will suffice and make it more encouraging to actively engage in the game otherwise it may be to hard to pull back leaders in events across the whole ten games. 3/2/1 allows for that win/winning draw/draw scenario we see in TT Swiss chess comps.

Regards Rex
My idea would be that this would have to be agreed by both players, Rex. A better solution might be to see if we could get some of the maps that lead to stalemates withdrawn from the game - maps with terrain all round the edges and a big space in the middle or all the terrain up one end of the map. As I understand it at the moment all the maps now have an individual number in the beta testing that is occurring for the new version of FOG. If that is still the case when the game is re-launched then it will be a simple task to identify the problematic maps and replace them with better ones. You would still need a fair number of the "featureless plains" type of map, but at the moment having a completely blank map would be more conducive to having a decent game in many instances.

3-2-1-0 is OK, Rex - except it is slightly anomalous inasmuch as 4pts would be awarded in a game where both sides broke whereas only 3pts are awarded for a win. One or two people commented on that before. So the 4-2-1-0 idea was suggested by me to remove that anomaly. But I think there is general agreement that the "fighting draw" should be worth more than the "agreed draw". :wink:
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

Turk1964 wrote:Gday Pete
I have read through your proposals for LOEG rules and i think most will think they are very clear and to the point.I would though include the Ability to claim a game if there has been no play for 30 Days,as one can normally.So you would have to Pm the absent player 3 times and post on the forum the same .After the second pm and warning Convenors should attempt to contact the absent player to see what the hold up may be.

Cheers Turk
Hello Mark. OK, the 30 day claim rule where this is no activity at all can go back in. I wish the system would actually let you claim a game after 15 days, a month is such a long time really. And yes, I think the key is to gradually develop a culture whereby players ask the organiser for help quite promptly so that problems are not allowed to build up. Just ignoring your opponent for 2 weeks at a time is just poor sportsmanship in my opinion (unless there is a genuine crisis).
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by voskarp »

Why can't a "fighting draw" have a 2-1 score, that is the player that "breaks the most" or the player that has a higher percentage lost when the time is out gets 1 point and the "winner" gets 2. If it's equal, as in the case of an agreed draw both get only 1 point.

I also agree with Rex that the element of choosing maps that suits your army is a good thing, even though some of the maps should be replaced.
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Re: Drawn games and other new ideas for LOEG . . .

Post by stockwellpete »

voskarp wrote:Why can't a "fighting draw" have a 2-1 score, that is the player that "breaks the most" or the player that has a higher percentage lost when the time is out gets 1 point and the "winner" gets 2. If it's equal, as in the case of an agreed draw both get only 1 point.
I think it is a question of proportionality, Oskar. When both armies break at the same time it means there is no winner - both armies are incapable of continuing. So I don't think one player should get twice the number of points as the other. It is not proportionate. The fact that one army may have killed a few more of the enemy than the other will, in any case, be represented in the calculations concerning the "kill ratio" - and that is wholly proportionate, in my view.
I also agree with Rex that the element of choosing maps that suits your army is a good thing, even though some of the maps should be replaced.
Oh yes - and specific maps should only be withdrawn if there is a general consensus about them. They will be replaced by newer, better maps so it shouldn't be too much of an issue really. :wink:
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