Swiss

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richafricanus
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Swiss

Post by richafricanus »

I'm new to FOG R so some pretty basic questions.
1. What's better, Armoured Superior or Unarmoured Elite?
2. With all the shot types around, is Armoured worth that extra point?
3. Why take the 2 heavy weapons boys in a Kiel? How do they work, as against just taking more pike?
4. How do Swiss stop losing their Camp against armies with a reasonable amount of mounted

Possible 800 pt army list
FC
2 TC
Det Foot 12+2 Sup Unar x 5
Gendarmes x 4
LH xBow x 4
LF Arquebus x 6
LF xBow x 6
9 BGs
kevinj
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Re: Swiss

Post by kevinj »

Hi Rich, good to see you trying Fog R. My experience of the Swiss is that it's a hard army to beat but also hard to win big with. It's widely believed that the best Swiss army is Italian Wars French because of the extra variety.

As for your questions:

1/2) Armour is pretty much down to personal preference. Whilst it won't help in melee against shot, it does mean they shoot at -POA at long range. It's also worth considering your likely opponents. If you're playing in a themed tournament (the most popular option in the UK, I don't know how it's is in Australia) for example, the contemporaries are likely to be armoured so you're likely to be giving up a POA in melee if you're unarmoured. You're also more vulnerable to Bow who are nastier than they look, they shoot all bases with 2 ranks at effective range. Generally I'd reckon it's worthwhile being armoured.

3) if you get the chance to deploy the HW as an overlap they get ++POA against anything. The formation rules allow this, as the HW are differently armed they can be deployed in a shallower formation than the pike. You can also deploy the 2 HW bases to cover an enemy overlap. Width is not something Swiss are that good at!

4) Don't get too attached to your camp! You need to be looking to close down the table with some nasty terrain but it is very hard to hold on to your camp.

Hope that helps.
ravenflight
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Re: Swiss

Post by ravenflight »

richafricanus wrote:I'm new to FOG R so some pretty basic questions.
1. What's better, Armoured Superior or Unarmoured Elite?
2. With all the shot types around, is Armoured worth that extra point?
3. Why take the 2 heavy weapons boys in a Kiel? How do they work, as against just taking more pike?
4. How do Swiss stop losing their Camp against armies with a reasonable amount of mounted

Possible 800 pt army list
FC
2 TC
Det Foot 12+2 Sup Unar x 5
Gendarmes x 4
LH xBow x 4
LF Arquebus x 6
LF xBow x 6
9 BGs

Hi Richard,

I hope we see you at CanCon. If you know Nick Wade he would probably be able to give some advise when it comes to Keils and the like having played two cons with Spanish.

The Halberdiers are 'give something and take nothing' sort of troops. In the situation where you need them as pike, they are effectively pike. In the situation where you get them to act as overlaps they get the ++ for being in an overlap position. It is a bonus, but not worth killing yourself over.

I can't comment on the armour vs unarmoured question except to say, remember that you move fast. Which means that at most (if you play your cards right) your enemy is only going to get one volley at close range. You move to 4" they get a long range volley. They then move up to 3" get a close range volley, grid their teeth and get charged by some pike!!! At long range, they are - for shooting vs armoured opponents, which means that in reality (especially against a large block like a Keil) you only have to worry about one lucky volley at effective range... and even then you don't have to worry about it too much.

In addition to this, many opponents will be armoured. I was surprised at how effective my French Louis XIV P&S were against unarmoured Swiss. They were +1 factor for pike depth, but lost that because my pike were armoured. Sure, that's only 1 file, but 6 guys held up an entire keil for quite some time... long enough for help to arrive and hit the keil in the 'flank' (not really a flank coz it's a keil, but it did mean I won the combat).

Nearly everything on a horse is going to be armoured at least. At least if it is armoured and you are you don't lose your POA.

Armour is cheap. I don't think you'd get elites for the same price do you??? Not too sure.

These are just a few things to consider.

I'll be running CanCon FoG R in 2015. Love to see you there!

Oh - edit - check your BG count. I'm not too familiar with GBG's but I think you'll find you're either at the edge of being GBG's therefore having a bigger BG count -or- you should reduce yourself to 4 BG's and make them GBG's.
madaxeman
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Re: Swiss

Post by madaxeman »

"If you come up with a plan that requires that your troops be Elite, chances are you have the wrong plan"
http://www.madaxeman.com
Holiday in Devon? Try https://www.thecaptainscottagebrixham.com
richafricanus
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Re: Swiss

Post by richafricanus »

Great thanks for all the advice. Sounds like its Armoured superior in 14 strong grand BGs. Hope to get to Cancon 2015 but will be torn between A/M or R or even N if we can get that off the ground. We have a FOG R tourney here in Melbourne in April with armies pre 1585.
richafricanus
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Re: Swiss

Post by richafricanus »

Great thanks for all the advice. Sounds like its Armoured superior in 14 strong grand BGs. Hope to get to Cancon 2015 but will be torn between A/M or R or even N if we can get that off the ground. We have a FOG R tourney here in Melbourne in April with armies pre 1585.
ravenflight
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Re: Swiss

Post by ravenflight »

richafricanus wrote:Great thanks for all the advice. Sounds like its Armoured superior in 14 strong grand BGs. Hope to get to Cancon 2015 but will be torn between A/M or R or even N if we can get that off the ground. We have a FOG R tourney here in Melbourne in April with armies pre 1585.
Richard, do FoG:R, it is seriously a much better game. You've played the last 5 or so AM comps... spice it up a little. I guarantee you won't be disappointed.
richafricanus
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Re: Swiss

Post by richafricanus »

I wonder why my last post came through twice?

I wonder why my last post came through twice?

:lol:

I have half the Melbourne players pushing me to FOG R too, but somehow ancients still feels like the "real-est" wargame for me, having started on Ancients way back with WRG 5th using Atlantic plastics. And my first ever wargames were Napoleonics with Bruce Quarrie rules using Airfix plastics. But I do enjoy FOG R so let's see.
Amra
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Re: Swiss

Post by Amra »

I don't think you need more than 2 Gens , I'd also take all 5 LF if I were you . Run your keils unarmoured in 8s too .
richafricanus
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Re: Swiss

Post by richafricanus »

Well I'm pleased to say that I went ahead with my Swiss, taking them to our tournament here in Melbourne and managing to win it :D

My 800 point list was as follows
3 TCs
6 LF Arquebus
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
6 LF Crossbow
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
8 Unarm determined foot Heavy Weapon
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
ravenflight
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Re: Swiss

Post by ravenflight »

richafricanus wrote:Well I'm pleased to say that I went ahead with my Swiss, taking them to our tournament here in Melbourne and managing to win it :D

My 800 point list was as follows
3 TCs
6 LF Arquebus
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
6 LF Crossbow
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
8 Unarm determined foot Heavy Weapon
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
So... will I put you down for CanCon? Also remember MOAB if you feel like travelling over the Labour day (I think it's Labour day) weekend.
ravenflight
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Re: Swiss

Post by ravenflight »

richafricanus wrote:Well I'm pleased to say that I went ahead with my Swiss, taking them to our tournament here in Melbourne and managing to win it :D

My 800 point list was as follows
3 TCs
6 LF Arquebus
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
6 LF Crossbow
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
8 Unarm determined foot Heavy Weapon
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
12+2 Arm Sup determined foot Pike/Heavy Weapon
So... will I put you down for CanCon? Also remember MOAB if you feel like travelling over the Labour day (I think it's Labour day) weekend.
richafricanus
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Re: Swiss

Post by richafricanus »

Yes, other Ian came down from Sydney and was promoting MOAB. First time since I've been in Aus that it hasn't clashed with my daughters' birthdays, so I'm keen to come. What periods are being played?
ravenflight
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Re: Swiss

Post by ravenflight »

richafricanus wrote:Yes, other Ian came down from Sydney and was promoting MOAB. First time since I've been in Aus that it hasn't clashed with my daughters' birthdays, so I'm keen to come. What periods are being played?
Hi Richard,

The FoG:R will be an open comp.
SirGarnet
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Re: Swiss

Post by SirGarnet »

Swiss is an army which in FOGR comes alive as opposed to its rather pokey depiction in FOG - Swiss 3 keil swift assault tactics work (and can be countered) as they should, and the supports have their work cut out for them. I prefer FOGR as a game engine for 14th and 15th century battles as well.
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