Battle Wagons

[petedalby]

My apologies if these have been asked before but a search didn't reveal anything.

Battle Wagons must CMT to move. So to make a 2nd move - that's 2 CMT's right?

Battle Wagons with Light Artillery capability. Can they move and fire?

Thanks

[kevinj]

P42 specifies that Battle Wagons must pass a CMT to make any move. Since first and second moves are individual moves I would say you'd need to pass a CMT for each.

As for shooting, I'd say that P106 (Artillery whose BG moved in any way cannot shoot) would prevent it.

There are a huge number of references for Battle Wagons given their effectiveness (or lack of it).

Has anyone seen them used in Fog R?

[petedalby]

Thanks Kevin

There are a huge number of references for Battle Wagons given their effectiveness (or lack of it)

There are 24 different page references for Battle Wagons in the Glossary - sadly none of them appear to cover them having artillery on board.

Has anyone seen them used in Fog R?

I have! Although I'm still none the wiser!

[timmy1]

OK, if anyone finds where it is, let me know. I have a corrected/enhanced index just waiting Slitherine permission to post it, so I can add that entry.

[rbodleyscott]

There are a huge number of references for Battle Wagons given their effectiveness (or lack of it).

And I took them all out during the beta, but was prevailed upon by public demand to put them back.

[petedalby]

Well I'm just waiting for some paint to dry so I've put this list together:

Pete Dalby’s Incomplete Guide to FoG:R Battle Wagons

P22 Battle Wagons are ‘Foot’.
P42 Battle Wagons may not be part of a ‘Division’.
P57 Battle Wagons must pass a CMT to carry out any move, whether simple or complex.
P61 Turning 90 degrees. To be honest I struggled to understand this, but I think Battle Wagons struggle to turn 90 degrees in some circumstances.
P77 Battle Wagons never count as charged in front or rear. Battle Wagons do not turn if contacted on their side or rear base edge.
P82 Battle Wagons cannot move in the impact phase. They cannot charge and cannot intercept.
P85 Battle Wagons cannot intercept charge.
P90 Listed in the index but I can find no mention of Battle Wagons here?
P97 Battle Wagons never expand or contract in close combat.
P100 Battle Wagons exert no restricted area.
P102 Battle Wagons can never move into contact with enemy, not even as an overlap.
P108 Battle Wagons can shoot from either long edge of their base, as chosen by the shooting player. They shoot as if 2 bases side by side. The arc of fire and target priority is determined separately for each half. The long edge that is shooting is treated as their front edge. They cannot shoot from a short edge.
P109 Battle Wagons only shoot with one file.
P110 A Battle Wagon base fighting as an overlap cannot shoot or be shot at. This applies to the whole battle wagon base.
P116 Battle Wagons shoot with 1 dice per base width from long edge only at short or long range.
P118 Battle Wagons are treated as if 2 bases side by side when fighting on their long base edge, 1 base when fighting on their short base edge.
P119 As P118 and when fighting on their long base edge, they count the file nearest the enemy as their front rank.
P123 Battle Wagons have a ‘+’ POA against any at Impact.
P124 Battle Wagons cannot defend fortifications or an obstacle. Better armour never counts vs Battle Wagons.
P130 Battle Wagons never make a rout move. Instead, they are destroyed and removed from the table.
P131 Initial pursuit is not possible against Battle Wagons.
P138 Battle Wagons cannot break off.
P173 HP2B & HP3B - Battle Wagons count the bases from one rank or file whichever is the greater number. Each base counts as 2 bases.
P182 Battle Wagons may not move up to defend fortifications as part of their first move.
P183 Battle Wagons cannot ambush.
P187 Battle Wagons within 6 MU’s of the point of arrival of enemy flank marchers are destroyed unless they are already in close combat.

Now, how's that paint doing?

[petedalby]

[quote]And I took them all out during the beta, but was prevailed upon by public demand to put them back. /quote]

So what's the definitive answer on artillery mounted on Battle Wagons please Richard?

My opponent' view was that it was the Battle Wagons that were doing the moving - not the artillery - so I gracefully allowed him to move and fire. Which is correct?

[daveallen]

P42 specifies that Battle Wagons must pass a CMT to make any move. Since first and second moves are individual moves I would say you'd need to pass a CMT for each.

It's p57.

As it's "any move" and not "each move" I interpret it to mean that BWg need a CMT to make even a simple move, but once they've passed it they wouldn't need to make a second to continue moving because they've already passed the test for this bound.

Dave

[kevinj]

Yes, I got the wrong reference. Too many choices. But I still maintain that each move is separate and requires a CMT. However, if you look at the second bullet in that section you could argue that if Battle Wagons fail their CMT they can still make a Simple Move as they are not Artillery (except possibly the ones that have Artillery). That I suspect is something for the errata.

[daveallen]

I still maintain that each move is separate and requires a CMT. However, if you look at the second bullet in that section you could argue that if Battle Wagons fail their CMT they can still make a Simple Move as they are not Artillery (except possibly the ones that have Artillery). That I suspect is something for the errata.

The first BP makes it clear that a BWg must pass a CMT to make even a simple move so I'd say that argument would fail, although, as you say, it might need clearing up in an errata.

On the other question, the turn sequence on p 201 (final line) refers to taking "a CMT if required" for normal movement. I take this as justification that a BG only needs to take one CMT as I would argue by analogy with CTs, which are only taken once per discrete section of the turn sequence, CMTs should also be limited to one per BG per section.

Dave

[madaxeman]

Sometimes I think the world would be a better place if Dave was required to pass a CMT to clutch at straws ....

[kevinj]

Sometimes I think the world would be a better place if Dave was required to pass a CMT to clutch at straws ....

This is a formula that would seem to apply for all values of "Dave"

[timmy1]

The trouble is that when some values of 'Dave' pass the CMT everyone else ends up having to take a CT...

[petedalby]

Just found a couple more not listed in the index:

P174 - Battle Wagons never count as supported

P175 - Battle Wagons are immune to 'Threatened Flank' caused by enemy capable of charging its front or rear.

Although quite bizarrely, Battle Wagons appear to suffer a threatened flank if enemy mounted are within 12MU of a flank. Surely that can't be right? That's exactly where a Battle Wagon would want to see enemy mounted?

Richard - could you clarify this please?

[rbodleyscott]

Although quite bizarrely, Battle Wagons appear to suffer a threatened flank if enemy mounted are within 12MU of a flank. Surely that can't be right? That's exactly where a Battle Wagon would want to see enemy mounted?

Richard - could you clarify this please?

What is this morbid obsession with battle wagons?

They were only included in the rules because of rare examples of persistent use, and I would have preferred to treat them as FF. At one point in the beta I removed them completely, but put them back at the request of some of the beta-testers. Sadly none of these reported the anomalies you have discovered.

I will add this to the list of errata for 1.09.

But if I don't see you using them at a tournament I will be cross.

[petedalby]

What is this morbid obsession with battle wagons?

Blame Lance - he used them in a game!

But if I don't see you using them at a tournament I will be cross.

Unlikely....but you never know.

[Buzz0000]

Well I'm just waiting for some paint to dry so I've put this list together:

Pete Dalby’s Incomplete Guide to FoG:R Battle Wagons

P22 Battle Wagons are ‘Foot’.
P42 Battle Wagons may not be part of a ‘Division’.
P57 Battle Wagons must pass a CMT to carry out any move, whether simple or complex.
P61 Turning 90 degrees. To be honest I struggled to understand this, but I think Battle Wagons struggle to turn 90 degrees in some circumstances.
P77 Battle Wagons never count as charged in front or rear. Battle Wagons do not turn if contacted on their side or rear base edge.
P82 Battle Wagons cannot move in the impact phase. They cannot charge and cannot intercept.
P85 Battle Wagons cannot intercept charge.
P90 Listed in the index but I can find no mention of Battle Wagons here?
P97 Battle Wagons never expand or contract in close combat.
P100 Battle Wagons exert no restricted area.
P102 Battle Wagons can never move into contact with enemy, not even as an overlap.
P108 Battle Wagons can shoot from either long edge of their base, as chosen by the shooting player. They shoot as if 2 bases side by side. The arc of fire and target priority is determined separately for each half. The long edge that is shooting is treated as their front edge. They cannot shoot from a short edge.
P109 Battle Wagons only shoot with one file.
P110 A Battle Wagon base fighting as an overlap cannot shoot or be shot at. This applies to the whole battle wagon base.
P116 Battle Wagons shoot with 1 dice per base width from long edge only at short or long range.
P118 Battle Wagons are treated as if 2 bases side by side when fighting on their long base edge, 1 base when fighting on their short base edge.
P119 As P118 and when fighting on their long base edge, they count the file nearest the enemy as their front rank.
P123 Battle Wagons have a ‘+’ POA against any at Impact.
P124 Battle Wagons cannot defend fortifications or an obstacle. Better armour never counts vs Battle Wagons.
P130 Battle Wagons never make a rout move. Instead, they are destroyed and removed from the table.
P131 Initial pursuit is not possible against Battle Wagons.
P138 Battle Wagons cannot break off.
P173 HP2B & HP3B - Battle Wagons count the bases from one rank or file whichever is the greater number. Each base counts as 2 bases.
P182 Battle Wagons may not move up to defend fortifications as part of their first move.
P183 Battle Wagons cannot ambush.
P187 Battle Wagons within 6 MU’s of the point of arrival of enemy flank marchers are destroyed unless they are already in close combat.

Now, how's that paint doing?

I never saw an update to this, I am dusting off and repurposing a Polish army to FOG-R basing and rules and was wondering about bothering with the Battle Wagons. Are they much used? And was there any clarification to this guide on treatment of the Wagons? Thanks

[Buzz0000]

I never saw an update on this thread or elsewhere. I am dusting off and repurposing a Polish army to FOG-R basing and rules and was wondering about bothering with the Battle Wagons. Are they much used? And was there any clarification to this guide on treatment of the Wagons? Thanks

[nikgaukroger]

No updates on Battle Wagons I can recall - certainly nothing in the recent update.

Any specific questions?